Going against docs and going online

Donnelly

New member

Hi to every onlinepharmacyreviews member.

 

There’s an pretty interesting subject that came into my mind these days when I have been watching a documentary movie on a stream network about euthanasia and terminal patients. Well, I do not really want to discuss about the latter, I would really like more to discuss about the doctors, terminal (or maybe not necessarily terminal) patient relationships. Or maybe only a simple doctor about chronic anxiety, depression or pain patient in general lines.

 

We all know that usually docs are suggesting a certain dose of a certain drug for a certain illness. And in most of the cases, docs are right (but there are cases when they are not) as the certain drug with a certain dose they recommended does work well for month or maybe even some years, however, then later the effects of those medications start to fade away and that’s why the chronic anxiety or depression or pain is slowly returning back. I don’t really understand why doctors act like they don’t know like something like this is happening. I’m not willing to discuss those docs who really understand it and they do take the necessary actions for preventing this because they try to keep your whatever the problem is under control. I am talking about those docs who don’t want to help, or they act like they don’t. we’re developing tolerance to the drugs, we all know it, and we develop it to almost any kind of drug and generally to all drugs. That is why, there comes one day when we are feeling worse than we feel usual, however there’s nothing intolerable and we start bearing with it, we’re biting our lips and we are practicing self discipline. We try to bear with it however we can using a lot of methods. However, days are passing and we start noticing that our symptoms are not getting any better and we start noticing that our old dosage with our new methods of keeping our symptoms under control are all useless and they are becoming more and more useless as time passes and within few months it is getting very hard to deal with it. there’s nearly nothing else that we can do that is why we start taking the prescribed dose + about 10 to 20 % more when we’re desperate. And voila, suddenly, all of our symptoms starts to fade and they are going away and then finally – you are pain free, once again, only after you have raised your dosage.

 

And here goes the usual thing: you are going to your next docs’ visit  and you talk with your doctor (in most cases, you only try to talk with him) that the prescribed dose he’s giving you is no longer helping you with your illness and you should do something about that because it is becoming very hard to live with it. however, in most of the cases (or when you reach it) your doctor is telling you that you are already maxed out of the dosage and there’s nothing he can do or there are also some other cases when he is simply not willing to raise your dosage (and usually he adds that because of some safety concerns) but sometimes I think that it happens just for the lolz, maybe you are having some problems with your kidneys, liver, heart or whatever else. so, despite the fact that you try hard telling him that you need help, there should be some changes done, in most of the cases he is handing you the same old script for the exact same drug with the exact same old dosage and quantity and obviously with no refills until you are going to have his next visit that would be in a month or so. Having this said, you either take the prescribed dose the entire month and you suffer or you don’t suffer for like 15-20 days because you have auto raised your dose but the rest of the days you are either living in hell or purchase some meds online. correct me if something what I have said isn’t correct.

 

So, after this, I do understand very well all of those folks that are already surfing the internet and they are on this forum site or some others similar to this one in order to find a remedy to this very problem that pretty usual their doc is giving them too few or generally not whatever you think that is helping you either talking about the drug itself or about the drug’s dosage. So in the end we are basically our own web doctors. We try to get some help from unknown people that we don’t even know whether they would help us or not, whether they would be sincere with us or not. we have no reasons to believe us. There is no reason that you should believe me or a reason for me to believe you but still – we listen to each other and sometimes even more than we listen to our professional doctors. I think that we haven’t gone crazy – I think that there are reasons for doing that. however, there are also other people who still think that we are crazy. I personally do not agree and I think that those people simply haven’t gone through what some of us are going through.

 

Here are some interesting questions for you that would make you think: do you feel some guilt that you are going behind your docs’ back and you are dosing as you wish? Are you feeling any guiltiness that you are destroying your own health??

 

Do you have any fears that you could hurt yourself (or maybe even worse – to kill yourself in the process) and then everybody else would find out that you were self-medicating even though you were regularly visiting to your doctor?

 

Personally, I am a member to a lot of forums. I like to read and to inform myself. I like to talk with other people as I think that each one of us has something precious to tell. I am reading a lot from a lot of people here and everywhere else, people who are having regular doctors and scripts and so on but my question is: why are you even bothering youself to go and to pay for your docs visits so regularly, even though you are basically already has become your own doctor after a lot of trying and experimenting. And that’s true. we are even switching, not only brands but pretty often within the same class medications, but also with different active ingredients. Like for example you are being scripted 1 mg of clonazepam, however you are switching to 10 mg of diazepam instead from an IOP because it is more helpful. however, you can make changed in your pain meds like for example going from Hydro to Oxy without your doctor knowing about it and in the end – it does help and even better than your doc told you. and here can be a list that can go like that forever.

 

You know what I started to think more and more lately and even more seriously? It seems to me that most of us, all we need is only one initial visit to our docs in order to get the diagnosis and maybe the active ingredient of a drug and that’s it because after this point we are able to simply become out own doctors. Even when we would keep getting the same medications, with the same dosage in the beginning and not to take big leaps right away in drug potency and in quantity. And all we are going to need is only a semi regular check up to the doctor in order to get some tests (and mostly depending on our meds) and maybe some advices. that’s it. and here we go. we have already basically became our doctors which is free.

 

Oh yeah, I know what you are thinking now and yeah I do agree that it is riskier, however it is not more expensive (but even much cheaper, especially if you are not having insurance to begin with),  besides you are picking up your own brand as you wish and you don’t have to rely on some generic crap (which usually is expensive) that a “normal” pharmacy has in stock at that moment (and they usually always have only what they want to have). yeah, it is also riskier due to the fact that there are people who can lose control about it and especially people with controlled medications that has high abuse risk like for example benzos and narcotics are like that. however, let’s face it, pretty often it can become a problem with prescriptions too and don’t tell me that it doesn't because the doc doesn’t give the prescription for more pills that can become “abuse” that bull sh*t!

 

Here’s what made me think more about that: that particular documentary I have been told you about, the docs have actually cut off one woman’s vicodin prescription for breast cancer due to the fact that she started to use more and more of it and then she has finally found herself to be called an addict and that’s why she could not get anything else than just the good old Ibuprofen… and guess what? yeah, she has died a couple of months later. my question is: doesn’t it sound to be the docs fault? Generally, how f*cked up it seems to you?

 

Yeah, I do know and I do understand very well that in case you would raise your dosage it would also raise the risks of your health being damaged (especially because I am always reading the label and the risks that a drug carries), however it would also benefit you even more than would harm your body. there’s a thing that really pisses me off that I really can’t understand and it is why the docs are being such @ssholes about this and they are focusing on 2-3 stupid people who were really heavily abusing themselves on that specific drug and ended up badly. Most of those people were not seeking anxiety or pain freedom, they simply wanted to get high, compared to us, people who really want to simply live a normal life.

 

To be honest with you guys, I am not sure whether this thread is would be considered just a rant or something like that, maybe people would not even want it to be discussed, I don’t know. but I hope that some of you will tell me what do you think about it because I’m honestly very interested in finding out your opinion about this.

 

Talking more about me so you could understand: I am having a script for 3 x 1 mg of Klonopin per day, however, I am using Valium mostly and definitely more than Klonopin and that’s because it is working much better for me. To answer those answers. Yeah, sometimes I do feel ashamed (most of the times), I feel like I have betrayed my doctor, however, I did tried to talk with her. I did tried to explain. But she is not willing to write anything else, anything I want or I suggest her etc. she gives me only Klonopin and Ambien and that’s even that I have told her that Ambien is not working and that I would rather prefer Lunesta much more. I have discussed a lot of times. But no… I really can’t understand why she is not willing to help me? what harm does it cause to her even if the med I want would cost 10 times more? but that’s the way it goes – it is not her that the damn insomnia is interfering with her entire day and whole life so much –it is me. and yeah, I do feel bad that I am ruining my health, but I feel like I help myself more than ruining it, because I don’t use it for getting high and my last question – yeah, I do feel fear. But that’s why I am here. that’s why I am registered to so many forums. That’s why I like to read so much. I think that by doing so – I am decreasing the risks.

 

But in the end of the day, I am very confused sometimes. I can’t understand. There are doctors who are becoming doctors because they want to help people (and lately it seems that this category of doctors are becoming less and less) but there are also other doctors who only became doctors so they would have money and mainly because I think they want to play gods. Yeah… gods. I think that they enjoy that power that they have, they have nearly the full control over your body. they decide which would be the level of your pains, of your anxiety, the quality of the sleep, they would even decide if you would be able to walk or not the next day. and for doing that they are charging you out. this kills me. this makes me so freakin’ angry. I really have no idea how about other countries because I haven’t got any healthcare elsewhere, however, IMO the healthcare system in the US has a lot of gaps that unfortunately nobody seem to care about. I understand nothing is perfect, but the gaps are so big that it all makes me sad and angry…

 

That’s pretty much everything. Yeah, I do know that there is the opposite side when you just entered your docs cab and here it goes: hello XXXX, how are you feeling? *regardless of your answer* here, I wrote for you a script of 100 xanax for a month if you won’t feel well, here is also a little bit of Ambien just in case you are going to have issues with your sleeping (another 100 pills) and yeah, try sticking with Xanax but if you start noticing that it doesn’t really help you there here you are another 100 Klonopin just in case. So, that’s fine no? surely you would find something useful. Ok, bye, see you next time and tell me how you feel *and the same each money*.

 

Cheers.

 

Deep99

New member

Yeah, I do understand what you are talking about because I have done the exact same thing in the past… my anxiety was getting so high that the dosage prescribed to me simply was not enough and even though I have been discussing with my doctor about this a lot and I have asked her to raise it up or to do something about it – I was always rejected. This is how I ended up on the forum boards. That is why I think that you are totally right about what you have said up there. about everything… I have kind of became my own doctor as I have switched the medications around in order to fit my needs and to feel a little bit better… to be functional again. but it does not hurt to visit a different doctor (so they won’t see that you switched meds or taking a higher dose) in order to get the tests ran on your body so would be sure that all of your levels are within a good range as far as blood pressure, enzyme count, cholesterol, liver etc. etc. doing this because yeah… I do feel guilty too that I do it (but I do know that I NEED to do so) and that I feel like I’m ruining my own health. That is why I try to read a lot and to  go to a different doc for tests.

 

It is pretty much no different than a mechanic. I do know what my cars needs due to the fact that I drive the damn car every single day. and I do know that my car does not want to have passenger tires on it because it is a 4x4 SUV and I need to carry some heavy things. having this said, it is all different because I am carrying heavier loads and most of people are not driving where I drive. It all makes a difference.

 

And even though this guilt feeling sometimes comes along, I easily make it disappear by thinking why I exactly do so. Doctors are also humans and as every human out there, they can also make mistakes. Especially because they don’t see you so often and they don’t know exactly how you feel and what you do. I am pretty sure that if they would live with you 24/7 then maybe then you are going to be given a good dose with the right product. As you said, basically I have became my own doctor because I am using my real doctor only for “support” and “advice” in order to see what med may or may not be needed for me and starting from there I can do my research, I can read and study. Regarding on how I feel, on my tests and on what my doctor said. plus I am able to find what I need cheaper elsewhere. It is true that the best option is to see a doctor, but sometimes, when doctors are not so helpful… you are left with no other options.

 

Thadestal63

New member

Oh well.. there is really very much of information to process Donnelly and I have to say that a lot of it sickens me. I am an APRN and I do volunteer hospice care, and that’s especially during the last crucial hours we know when there is nobody else that can handle it. Am I telling my doctor absolutely everything?? Well.. only when I am ill. I am surely not asking her to sit in stirrups for a vaginal check and to ask her how many sexual partner she has had. Similarly invasive, that is why this is barely a statement of a comparative nature and NOT a remark about the sexual conduct and relationships of mine (that I am having none of either way).

 

My worries are more about the amount of drugs that some of those vendors are supplying in only one go. researching chemicals and taking vaster amounts until our body is simply unable to function as the “machine” it is anymore. so.. then later the very sad but the inevitable is happening.

 

What would be my personal answer to this problem? not within the government controlled medical community that it is a certainty, even though there really are some pretty sympathetic docs who really care (though they might be only a few of them). now, I am having one, however, I have been training and I have gone through high and low until I have finally found her. honestly, it is quite a drive from my home to her (right now), however it is worth since she is my and very good expert and exactly like with yoga, we really need an “outside” perspective in order to balance everything and not to get injured in this process.

 

I really don’t want you to understand me wrong, however, I respectfully need to disagree with self medication and “own doctor” as well as creating chemical dependency, and that especially goes for everything that it is in the category of the opiates family. Our body is just like a machine and the higher you would take the dose then the greater are the risks that are there of the machine, or the entire (kidneys, lungs, heart, liver etc) failing. But I don’t even want to start about discuss all those very high and severe psychological dependency that it is creating that I think that it is just about (or maybe even of the same) important.

 

Once again, I do not want any of you to understand me wrong and lots of shame on the doc that doesn’t want to prescribe (at the very least) the Oxycotin for that horrible pains that the poor dying woman was suffering from.

 

In the time my patients are getting their last burst, and I do know by their breathing and moaning etc, I signal the head ICU nurse for the morphine drip. We are all having the right to go out with dignity. As I have said, I am not having an all inclusive answer, however to stand on whatever side of the fence and to throw rocks at one another  are the 2 sides of the exact same coin. There are no real change that come in this form. and yeah, it does take very much of strength NOT to throw those stones, however, that power of those people that CAN and after that create and be the power of many! I would say that we should “be a voice and not an echo”.

 

I am really sorry if I’ve said something offensive or anything in this matter. I politely excuse myself because I definitely did not come here for an argument. I am definitely not wishing any ill will or feelings so I wish you everyone good luck and all the best!

 

Melina

New member

Hi Donnelly. So well, I can clearly see where you are coming from with what you have said up there and I have to tell you that you are having that frustrated feeling with this medical world and with doc’s in particular and I do understand you very well, however, I have to tell you that in much of what you have said up there… you are wrong. No, I don’t want you to become my enemy or to defend somebody or anything in this matter. I will explain below what I mean and please try to understand my point. I think that right now, especially the late days, docs are getting a very bad reputations and they are the ones who are feeling the most backlash from everything of the new drug laws. What I am trying to say is that the doctors are the ones (so to speak) who are going on the front line, they are the people who are actually facing  the patients and the patients who sees? The patients sees only them, in most cases the patients don’t see anything else than the doctors, pretty much like you, but you don’t know that doctor’s hands, in A LOT of cases are tied and they are not able to do anything. So you need to know that in the end it is not really the doctors, it is in fact the DEA and the government policies that are behind the scenes that are causing so so much problems for the patients like for example for you and me and for nearly everybody who is here. doctors are only being told what they should tell to their patients and patients only hears what the doctors say, not the law themselves. As you have said, the doctor won’t lose anything if he’s going to give whatever the med to you, as you said – after all, he don’t care. The point is that he cannot do it because as I said, he’s hands are tied by people who’s up there. yeah, there really are some cases when the docs CAN do something but they don’t (and I can’t really understand why), but in most of the cases they CANNOT!

 

Now, regarding that case that you have seen in the documentary about the cancer victim that has been given ibuprofen then yeah. I agree with you 100%, that is totally ridiculous. But in fact, let’s think about it: that’s an extraordinary case and that’s why they have done a documentary about it and I’m pretty sure the doc who was responsible for this – got some penalties. But I can tell you something else from my own experience and it is the fact that I have had somebody that I kind of went through some sh*t with him and I do cared about him but he passed away from lung cancer one year and a half ago. of course he have had lots of chemo therapy and different different crap, however I also know that he has been given enormous amounts of morphine. In the end… he got tired… of course, who wouldn’t? so he said that enough is enough one day, stopped it all, laid down and passed away… the point is that from what I have seen… I really can’t understand how a cancer victim is not prescribed anything for pain… my friend did got prescribed and in big amounts… and I think that cancer victims are being given these pain relievers even if they have been accused of being a pill seeker. In such situations I doubt that it matters.

 

Well, just lemme give you an example of relationship, my relationship with my doctor. He is a middle aged man, he has wife, has kids, pretty much like me. he is a friendly person, he is pleasant the way he talks and he is willing to discuss anything, always asks me how am I and really seems that he wants to help me. in short – at least it seems that he cares about me. he has never turned down or dropped a script on me and of course I can’t be sure but probably he never will. That it is only an untold “reality” that in fact we both know very well that I am taking more of some drugs than the exact same small scripted stuff that it is being given to me for the last few years, however, I am never asking for me and for some reasons I can speculate on, he is never asking me why. He even told me that if I would ever want to go to PM then he is going to send along a recommendation if I needed and then I would get more quantity but I have politely turn down. he also never asked me why and I also pretty much know why he didn’t asked me.

 

Exactly as me and you and obviously a lot of other people (I can say a lot of other patients), even though he’s a doctor, he also does not like some of the laws and some new laws that are being introduced as well as those restrictions that in fact are not put on us, but they are put on them. in a way or another, it is pretty much like a slap into the face of the entire knowledgeable medical personnel due to the fact that this is literally taking away their right in order to make some medication decision that pretty often they want and they need to make. But… because of these “taken away” rights, they cannot. Yeah, I also do agree that there are a lot of docs who don’t really care, who are there for money and maybe even for that “god play” game (though that’s kind of stupidity, but yeah, it really can exists). But, in the same time, I do know a lot of doctors who really do care, however, in order to give out the scripts that they want to give to their patients that really need them, they are under a big risk of losing their years career, their license to practice and so on. In short, they lose everything they have worked for over years on end, they lose their job, they money source (and as I said, they have wives and kids). That is why, I think it is pretty much understandable why they are doing whatever they are doing. Once again, I do agree that there are such species of doctors when they really can do something without risking anything but they don’t. that’s another case and another scenario, however not all doctors are like that.. by far not every doctor. We should remember that in absolutely any place of employment, in absolutely any profession, there are going to be all kinds of persons, which are good and bad personnel. Exactly as everywhere else in life, in any situation etc etc. people are much different from each other. I’m just trying to say that putting all doctors into one single category it is pretty much like putting all patients into an addict category which we all know that both are untrue.

 

Now, answering your question… no, I’m not feeling any guilt for doing whatever I am doing, I don’t feel any guilt for ordering whatever I order and using what I use. Doctors do helps us, however, mainly our decisions are made by us so we have to be responsible for this. I consider that my decisions as well as whatever the result would be are either to my credit or my downfall and experience. whatever the case is – I am responsible for that. I really don’t want to offend anyone or to be rude, that’s only my opinion. peace!

 

Donnelly

New member

I do not get it, I go to a new doctor (that’s a true story)

Here’s the 1st story:

 

-Doctor XXX, I have a feeling that Klonopin is not the best option for me because it is not working as good as something else does, like for example, I have tried Valium for a few months and it has worked amazing, so you could maybe…?

- yeaaaaah… so well, I am not prescribing that, however I guess that we are going to try out Ativan

-bye bye nice doctor (why the f*** I would need Ativan when I said that Valium works for me?)

 

Honestly… I mean, what the f***???? I am not asking him to upgrade my tramadol to fentanyl patches for god’s sake!!!

 

Here’s another story:

- Hello doctor, I am having a very hard to time with my anxiety and I am also suffering from insomnia and unfortunately it does not seem that 3x1 mg of klonopin is helping me at all.

- oh well, I am being reluctant on prescribing some controlled substances, however, there’s something else I can do: I could give you a script for Remeron…

- bye bye nice doctor (why the f*** I would need Remeron?)

 

And here’s another story:

- Hi doctor. I would need about 300 pills of your finest 10 mg of Diazepam

- oh yeah, no prob. It is going to be XXX $

- here it is.

- have a nice day

 

Honestly, I am wondering which doctor I am going to choose. Could you please help me out here? that’s a too hard decision…  yeah, there are some things that you are right about, however, by far not everything that you have said is true. wish you all the best.

 

Melina

New member

So well… to tell you the truth… there is nearly nothing you can do about in case you want one certain medication or brand but your doctor is having a different one in his mind… in my opinion, and I’m pretty sure that’s true, most of the doctors simply do not like and don’t want their patients to simply come in and to tell them what they want to be prescribed and in fact, this mostly seems like a drug seeking behavior, so I think that they like it the other way around. In the end, who’s the doctor?? This is the reason why I am never doing it, I just want to stay away from putting any strain on my relationship with my doctor. And yeah, you ARE putting strain on your relationship with your doctor when you do so. Yeah, you might be bit informed, yeah you might suggest what helps and what’s not, but you cannot tell him what you want to be prescribed and then – get it.

 

You see… if it is not that way and then doctor is only going to listen to all of your requests then in the end who’s the doctor?? It is basically only a middleman between you and whatever medication you want and request. And doesn’t it remember you anything? They are like drug dealers in such situations… I think. and that’s what they do not like about it, isn’t it? in fact, I think that it is making them a little bit angry when this actually happens due to the fact that it seems that the patients is questioning his or her knowledge and their medical expertise and sometimes the patients are giving the feeling to their doctors like they know more than the actual doctor. And no, I’m not trying to say that all of them are medical experts and they cannot be wrong however, I guess you have got what I am trying to say. I’m just trying to imagine what if I would be a doctor so that’s how it would look to a doctor… I guess…

 

That is why, in fact, this is most likely the best reason why you have to order from IOP’s. It is really the only way out there that you are in complete control of what you are using and how you are using it and so on. Yeah, it is true that there would always going to be those legal risks as well as those extremely important concerns about self control, however if you’re going to look at the options available for you… you would never going to be your own doctor when you are going to see him. This would never happen. He’s the doctor, he won’t ever allow you to take the control.

 

For me. it is better to have both of them… if it is possible a legal script of what you are ordering or something (at least) that it is very related to it because this might cover your @ss in case you would ever need to provide some reasons or proofs of the medications that you are using.

 

But, in the very end, this is only the way I see your situation and your problems, I obviously have not seen and felt what you have gone through that is why I really might have it all wrong so I’m sorry if this is so. Regardless, I wish you good luck and I hope you are going to be fine and your doctor is going to take care of you the same way as he would take care of his child.

 

Melina

New member

Hey there Donnelly… you know… the arrogance sometimes can be mistaken for self confidence and it might be true of what you are telling, however a doctor need to feel confident in what he is doing as well as what he or she is prescribing because if they won’t then there are not going to be any good for anyone.

 

Plus, since we are the ones that are making appointments and we go to see them then I guess we just need to give them the floor and to make them feel whatever they want to feel… you know? and then if you really do not like the results then… well… I guess we are here right now… isn’t it?

 

Donnelly

New member

Yeah, that might be true, however we should not forget that in the end of the day – doctors are also humans and that’s why I’m not trying to say that patients or doctor should be “above one another” and I firmly believe that doctors are by no means “above anyone”, what I really think is that doctors and patients should work together, isn’t it?

 

Plus, I do agree about what you said about self confidence, but this is one thing and I really expect them to be confident in case it happens that I need an open heart surgery one day (knocks on the wood), however, when I am putting down the FACTS, when I tell him that Klonopin is not working for me as I have tried it for a while on a daily basis, but I also tried valium and it is true 100% that it works amazingly, then I think that it would be both confident and RATIONAL to give me Valium and not to continue me going with Klonopin. You don’t have to see a doctor to understand this.

 

But, out of self confidence… there is no reason in telling “so.. in case klonopin REALLY does not work for you, then let’s try out Ativan. WTF?? Really? I had a feeling that he did not heard what I have said. I have told him I have been on valium for years and it works well on me, there are absolutely no needs in “trying” Ativan. Why would I try it anyway?? please pardon me, but that’s definitely arrogance. The patient is stupid only because he hasn’t been to medschool and haven’t learned 10 years about something completely different than the actual situation. Most of doc look at their patients like at some monkeys only because they did not go to medschool and this is the reason why they don’t know what’s good for them. How it is that? I can’t know what I need – I’ve just told you that I have used Valium and it works. For f***s sake, I feel it. that is why, in the end you either help me or I keep looking forward (and that’s how I ended up here).

 

Melina

New member

Well, I assumed that you wanted to know the real reasons as to why doctors are doing whatever they are doing, I mean why they are not giving out the meds that people want and they think they help them and so on. I just shared with you my opinion and (to me) some logical reasons that I think are the things the way they are and the docs are doing it the way they are doing. While in the same time is because only the doctors are arrogant. I’m just trying to remain logical.

 

In fact, to be honest I really don’t know why it pretty much sounds like I am defending the medical profession. I know that it sounds so, but in reality I really don’t. I just, as I said, give logical explanation to that. especially because I don’t know a damn thing about being a doctor and their reasons and so on, except only for my limited experiences observing my own doctor (which I assume we all do).

 

So, after all I do know that I can’t give any solid excuses for anything that the doctors are doing, and I really doubt that here is going to be somebody who is able to do it unless they are doctors and they can tell us for sure.

 

Donnelly

New member

Well, unless a doctor is not able to give me a rational and really logical reason as to why I am unable to get the medication that it has already been proven to have been doing a good job for me for some years, I really can’t accept a damn thing and especially a “how about we would TRY Ativan instead” (just to see how it is going to work). Once again, why would I need to try something when I need that there’s something else that WORKS on me! plus, there is no logical explanation than they being arrogant since they are both Schedule IV. I would understand a bit if Ativan wouldn’t be Schedule IV. I am already being prescribed to one by my prev. doc, so he does not need to take a hit by prescribing a controlled med substance to a potential drug seeker, both of them are the same class, both of them are benzodiazepines, both of them are in the same schedule and so on, the main (and pretty much the only) difference is a few molecular structure differences and that’s pretty much everything, and in the end of the day, that’s the molecular structure differences that one of them is working on me and other is not. I think that’s the most important difference. one of them is working amazingly on me and the other one is not (in fact it also does work, but only on occasions) so why would I need to take something that works “on occasion” instead of something that always works great?! And I have already discussed with him and told that I do not like the short half lived benzodiazepines and that I would rather take a lesser but a consistent kick that it is lasting throughout the entire day. personally for me, Klonopin really is a great drug for panic attacks and for those bad anxiety days, however it is not good for me for daily usage.

 

Oh well, look, since you are not a very big expert on benzos, you are pretty much more a “pain med” patient, let me give you an example of that. you are visiting your doc that is in control of managing your pains. Let’s assume that you are being given vicodin. Honestly, I am not an expert in pain killers (not at all), but as much as I can remember, there are 2 types of Vicodin that are available out ther (at the least). One of them has Tylenol and the other one is having Ibuprofen in them (Hydrocodone bitartrate, I have even searched some info on google for giving you an answer, LOL) but it is not vicodin due to the fact that we could call it really vicodin only if it is having Tylenol in it, anyway, this is not the most important point out there.

 

So, let’s assume that you are not feeling comfortable with using the one that it is having Tylenol in it, due to the fact that it happened to you to enjoy a couple of drink every now and then so alcohol in combination with acetaminophen it is not the best combo out there, that is why you are thinking that it would be much better for you t have the hydrocodone that is having ibuprofen in it.

 

Now, having all of this said: you are going to see your doc, you are laying it all out and the doctor “who’s barely listening to you” is telling “oh, I am not writing Hydrocodone Bitartrate prescriptions… I’m sorry, however why don’t you try out the Codeine” and without listening to you very much he already starts writing the prescription of Codeine which you already know that it is not very helpful for you. and here you go with your codeine script, going home and knowing that it is useless for you. you see what I am trying to tell you? you know that hydrocodone bitartrate helps you and you know that codeine won’t but he still gives you the one that won’t help you and it is not justifying it and you know why? I don’t, you don’t and I know that the doctor also don’t know why. That’s because there’s nothing that is justifying it. that’s because he is arrogant – he’s the doctor, he knows better while you are the patient and you don’t know anything…

 

McBrien

New member

Hello Donnelly. Of course, I am not able to speak to your particular situation, however, there’s one thing I can tell you for sure and it is that the Physicians are exactly as everybody else. they are humans who are also reading the newspapers, are watching TV, they read online etc. etc. and exactly as everybody here they are exactly aware here that the current political climate has been shifted where the prescribing of controlled substances is concerned. The physicians tend to be a small and a tight knit group to my knowledge and there is nobody who wants to be labeled by their peer as being “the one who is over prescribing”. They are under the risk, as it has been said above by Melina. Yeah, I do agree that this is not excusing the poor treatments of the patients, however I am sure that the physicians do not want to get a phone call and to be told that one of their patients has over dosed because after that THEY would be the one who would take the responsibility for that. Although in most of the cases it Is involved poly drug abuse (in which I am sure that the physician was neither aware of nor condoned). The physicians, as all people, know very well that the public and most people want somebody to blame and pretty often this turns out to be the physician who has prescribed to his patient (with good intentions, of course) 30 tablets of Vicodin.

 

But, nobody ever mind that the patient who has overdosed and diet has also been using some other drugs that they may (and in most cases they are) have purchased on the street or somewhere else that doctor was not aware not, was drinking heavily (alcohol) and also happened to hit the grandma’s med cabinet for a handful of valium.

 

Somebody must pay for that due to the fact that in all cases the public really wants some action, they want some revenge and there are many prosecutors who are politicians that need to run for office and thereby to give the public whatever they want. That is why, it is very easily to understand why naturally physicians are often taking the “why I need to put my neck on the line” attitude and this is why they are playing the “pass this patient to the next physician and let it be their problem”. I think it is logical, I think it is natural. And even though it is not right, that’s the way it is. this situation is happening very often and in the end, obviously, who is suffering?? The patient is obviously suffering because they are going round and round with this circle of physicians with each shirking their responsibility and in the hope that maybe the next physician or the next specialist that the patient is going to see will finally write the prescription that he needs.

 

The times are changing, I know that in the past it was easier and better. but, because of that “few cases” of overdosing, everything changed. They are making sure that the patients are not getting whatever they want and they are making sure that the physicians are not giving whatever the patients want. Nowadays the physicians that are prescribing anything that it is stronger than Tylenol 3 for some serious pain issues is being heavily scrutinized and most have meticulous and complete little detailed documentation for making this choice of writing an script for anything that it is being higher than a schedule CIV or CIII substance.

 

Once again, I am not trying to defend physicians or bad medicine by any means and there are reasons doing that. there have always been a small percentage of some physicians who were either knowingly over prescribing for money or this annoying an frustrating flat out to refuse to prescribe any medications only because it is being controlled (after all, that’s their job). In my personal opinion, both types of the doctors need to have their licenses dismissed. This is the bad medicine at best and malpractice at worst.

 

I really hope that in time we are slowly going to come back to what it used to be in the past and that all the doctors who are willing to get rid of the patients who really need scheduled drugs, as well as those who overprescribe because of money – their license would be dismissed ASAP! I really hope you have got my point Donnell and while you might be right on some things you are telling up there, I’m pretty sure that there are some that you are not. and I’m sorry if you have got a doctor that falls under either of these categories.

 

Donnelly

New member

Hello there McBrien, that’s one very good point, I have never questions doctors that do not will to prescribe a 100 tablets of oxy for a month with 2 refills, however I think that (and most of you should agree, I guess) there has to be a fine line about this. but, there are such people like the following I encountered. I have had a NPR who straight out completely refused to prescribe me anything at least somehow stronger for my SEVERE anxiety than Vistaril and that was just out of principle or as I said, out of his freakin’ arrogance. Oh. That’s a very helpful doctor, thank you a lot, you’re my friggin’ super hero.

 

Of course I can’t know but it is a job hazard that there would be some doctors that are going to get the phone call that their patient OD’d on the oxy, however it is an obvious thing that everybody is going to clear the doc in case he had not prescribed him more than what it is being justified. Like for example, he gave him 30 7.5/325 of hydros with no refills. In such case when the guy or whoever is using all of them (30 tablets) at once and he obviously dies then I really cannot see where it is the doctor’s fault, it really has nothing to do with the prescribing doctor’s responsibility. It is clearly seen that the patient has been simply suicidal and he could as well shot himself in the head or hang himself, there has nothing that the doc could have done about it so I think that only some “low – IQ minds” can think that the doctor is responsible for that. having this said, judges should not be “low IQ minds” therefore, as I said, the doctor is going to be justified. After all, he was simply doing his freakin’ doctor’s JOB!

 

And now, honestly, where or when you have seen a doctor been scrutinized or his license dismissed because he has been doing his job prescribing NORMAL doses to his patient who was suffering. Of course, those doctors who prescribed lots of tablets to somebody who they saw the first time in their lives because they paid them money – that’s another case. But when a doctor saw me lots of times and he saw that I need help - if he would prescribe me SOME pills I really need WITHOUT refills then what would be the chances that he would have troubles even if I would do something with them (like drinking all of them at once – which I wouldn’t do, of course).

 

Besides, about the benzos – it is pretty hard to die on benzo OD. You would have to try hard. I only know that something like that is possible if you would mix it up with all of the depressants in this world and even then you have chances of being alive. However, even then it is none of the doc’s responsibility. Generally, when the doctor does something legal (without doing anything for money purposes) then chances he is going to have some troubles are very low. I can even say that there are no chances at all – why would there be some when he’s doing everything LEGAL!

 

If we start thinking this way then we might this way not put people under the general anesthesia. Why? Because the patient is an idiot and because the patient can do it without it. why we should put anesthesia when there’s the chance not doing it? instead, we could give him some cookie so he would forget about the pains and if he won’t die because of pain during the operation then after that we would put a little bit of ice there so it would numb the area. PERFECT!

 

Please, do not defend the doctors, that’s the doctor’s f*cking job – to prescribe meds you need and to HELP! because they are NOT doing that their license should be dismissed!

 

2Mia

New member

Well, I’m not sure what I can tell on this, but there’s one thing that I find very strange and it is how the same doctor is very often treating my pains very differently than my husband pains. I mean, different methods or at least dosages and etc.

 

We are going to the same practice together and usually the same doctor is giving me a quantity and strength of Percocet (can raise my quantity) and he is not really much prompting at all, however in the same time he is letting my husband twisting in the wind with nothing at all.

 

I am in pain management and I have not even needed in increase for a long time now but in the same time there’s my husband who can even get normally a proper referral to the PM.

 

At least in the family practice we are using, I think that one of the reasons why I have got my pain treated is the reverse discrimination. Over some years I have gone in there and I have noticed the demographic of the patients change. They are now serving a more diverse population as well as a poorer population. My doctor said to me flat out that he is going to prescribe whatever I would need and he is never going to bother on testing me out because he knows very well that I am not that type of person who is gonna sell my pills. I guess it is so because I am that type of person who is calling and is asking for the permission if I want to use one more pill in case I really have a very bad day. and I really cope with that day in case I am not getting the permission (thought it happened only once a long time ago). I am always waiting for the permission, that is why I guess that I have got his trust.

 

But, I can say that I used to be pretty poor too and this did not automatically made me dishonest or drug seeking. Although I am very lucky and very thankful to god that I did not have had chronic pain during that time because if I had then it could be different from how it is now. I guess that we can talk about this very and very much because each patient is different and each doctor is different so it mainly depends only on YOU and on your doctor.

 

Melina

New member

2Mia… well… yeah… this really does seem to be very unfair and I also can’t really understand the reason why it is so… I do know that doctors are thinking that their patient to doctor relationship is private, however, now that it is the husband – wife relation then I really have no idea what he is thinking about (maybe he doesn’t know that you’re husband and wife ? LOL). I mean… he is really thinking that you guys are really going to keep in secret on how much and what it is your script from one another?? I mean… if he’s really thinking like that then most likely something is seriously wrong with him… as I said, unless he doesn’t know you’re together :D . I mean, yeah, there are marriages when the couples are keeping even such things in secret, but I think this should not happen in a good marriage (generally in a good marriage there should not be any secrets and lies). And if he is a good doc then he/she should know it very well.

 

Or maybe, a thought that came into my mind (though I know that it doesn’t sound logical, but I still have to ask this): maybe both of you are NOT having identical problem?? but if you do then yeah… I also think that you should be getting identical scripts. Maybe you don’t know it for sure? But if you think that you have the same problem both of you then, I do know that you wouldn’t want to do it, but it might be a good idea if you would raise this topic to his attention and directly from yourself the next time you’re going to visit him. I think that you need to ask him what are the reasons… or maybe he would tell them without you asking. Some of LOGICAL reasons that came into my mind is maybe because he is a man and you’re a woman and the dosages should be different, although usually it is vice versa when the man is able to take a bigger dosage than a woman. I have never heard of a drug when women are allowed to take a bigger dosage than men (although I’m not a doctor and this might be wrong). Or who knows??

 

I am very sure that the doctors are doing profile certain people automatically as possible pill seekers, frauds and/or abusers. Of course I can’t be sure but I think that they are probably tried in what to search for and maybe then they are adding in their own personal discriminations due to their past issues that they had with other (past) patients so it might become a nightmare for some certain people but in the same time this can become a goldmine for other people.

 

Obviously, if you are the person who is actually calling while is suffering from pains and it is waiting in that pain for a permission before using any extra tablet then it is going to put you in a big favor of your doc. and in my opinion it really should do it because of several reasons. One of them is that there are not so many people who would do that. most of them, when they know that they have handy a pill and they are suffering from pains then they use it without big questions, you did. Other thing is that (I guess) it shows that you have control on yourself. Even if you are in pain you wait for the permission. Another thing is that you show that you do exactly how your doc said, everything, and you listen to him with precision. I guess that all of this is making it special in itself.

 

Your husband mat try a different clinic and give it a try. However, if this is not possible theni guess you should do something about that too. I mean, trying to help because he is in pain too and he should get help too. he has as much right as everybody else to get some help, at least as much right as you do.

 

I really think that maybe talking to your doc might help, especially since it seems that it is your long time family doc and you are the one who has never misused a single pill. I really hope that in the end of the day we’re going to see some logic in the things that are going out for your husband too.

 

2Mia

New member

Well, thank you very much for your post. I let my husband to read it as well as the previous post in order to get a feel for this topic. What he says (and I totally do agree) is that there is a thing that keeps ringing in his head as some alarm bells and it is that our family doctor have not done any tests at all for some years. I mean, no xrays, blood tests and etc. so then I have finally got my hubby to go back to his orthopedic surgeon who has immediately done some xrays and he has noticed that his other hip is bone on bone. It does not explain that pains he is getting in his hands, however it does prove very well that he is truly having legitimate pains. However, that doctor cannot do anything until my husband  would agree to get on his surgical schedule for a hip replacement and he is telling “come back when you hurt badly enough”. My husband told me that he feels like it is pretty much an squeezing out of money it is basically like: you either give me money or you don’t get anything. About my husband and me.. even though we are not having the same medical histories (of course) and identical issues, there is very much similarity between us 2. And yeah, there’s one more thing I have not told you, besides the fact that we are sharing the same doctor…. But my husband is always (I mean every single time) at my appointments with the doc. I am also trying to be present to all of his appointments too, however there are sometimes when because of my work I simply cannot. Besides, yeah, I did have used my appointments in order to talk about the obvious lack of his pain treatment.

 

This practice is also experiencing VERY much of doctors turnover. The long time doctor that we had is gone, the second doctor which has been the most longish time in there, is also gone now. This is why I have had my pain management doctor to take over to write my scripts. To be honest, I still do get nervous to ask for those refills like a baby and lately they are having me appearing to their appointment only once every 2 months instead of every month (how it used to be in the past) and they are writing me one extra prescription for the next month (the second one) and we are putting it in a safe place and it stays there until the time for them to be used comes. I have been discussing with the PM (or.. I am also often see the PA there) about giving some more muscle relaxers and.. yeah, he have not seen any problems about that. Well, in fact the only problem that I have ever had at PM was to get them to use my mail order pharmacy for those muscle relaxers but that was not such a big issue anyway.

 

I just think that both my hubby and I need to find some new family doc and mostly because of this. and by the way, we’re going to see a new one in a few weeks and I really hope that this one won’t be like the previous.

 

MarbleMe

New member

so… I have a feeling that surely… a person who is treating themselves may have a fool for a patient in a lot of circumstances.

 

And then… obviously, I have successfully defended myself pro se against that collection of lawsuit that has involved me to have to draft six various motions, rebuttals and briefs and got them to give up after they have had filed an appeal to the state Supreme Court and I have threatened to lawyer up.

 

Melina

New member

I’m sorry about that MarbleMe… this is one of the very worst statement that some of the people out there really like to throw around every single time when self medicating discussion pops up. I think that this is mostly depending on the person itself, I mean it depends on how much knowledge he or she is having upon her own body as well as how much they know about the medications that they are deciding to use. It is not toward you, however those people that are throwing this statement all way around are, in most cases those “real fools” out there… you know it well, I know it too and God knows and sees it as well.

 

I guess that you do realize that there is a very large number of members here as well as on a lot of other sites that are just doing it – self medicating and I have seen that there are a lot of people who has really done a very good job about that. but, it is going to be foolish for anybody to try the medication since they have never used only having their own advice to follow… which is going to be none.

Personally I think that that it is very important to take over your own self medication only after experienced use is proper, it can and it is DONE properly by a lot of people.

 

MarbleMe

New member

Anyway, the topic has been self doctoring and to tell you my sincere opinion it is that there are still people who are choose to use such resources available all over the internet as a first choice and it may need to consider that old axiom about representing yourself in the court. Yeah, it is true that sometimes you are going to be the best advocate for your situation than all of the MDs that are available to you alone. I one cannot responsibly advocate it for anybody. I one really think that this is a decision that everybody should make for themselves accordingly to a lot of factors (most of which has been told through this thread).

 

However, I guess I am not the only one who has also seen people who got strung out on a lot of similar forums due to the fact that they have been irresponsible and I think that we should take this in account too. we are all adults here (most, at least) that is why I cannot say what any specific person in general need to do because we all decide which is better for ourselves and while for some it is better the X choice, for others it is better the A choice. However, the RC benzos, for instance, are still at a very high risk that people would need to understand and to accept before they are going to do any decisions as adults. Generally, being an adult implies responsibilities but people often confound adulthood with “I do whatever I want” and this is a mistake JMHO.

 

Melina

New member

MarbleMe said:
</p><p>Anyway, the topic has been self doctoring and to tell you my sincere opinion it is that there are still people who are choose to use such resources available all over the internet as a first choice and it may need to consider that old axiom about representing yourself in the court. Yeah, it is true that sometimes you are going to be the best advocate for your situation than all of the MDs that are available to you alone. I one cannot responsibly advocate it for anybody. I one really think that this is a decision that everybody should make for themselves accordingly to a lot of factors (most of which has been told through this thread).</p><p> </p><p>However, I guess I am not the only one who has also seen people who got strung out on a lot of similar forums due to the fact that they have been irresponsible and I think that we should take this in account too. we are all adults here (most, at least) that is why I cannot say what any specific person in general need to do because we all decide which is better for ourselves and while for some it is better the X choice, for others it is better the A choice. However, the RC benzos, for instance, are still at a very high risk that people would need to understand and to accept before they are going to do any decisions as adults. Generally, being an adult implies responsibilities but people often confound adulthood with “I do whatever I want” and this is a mistake JMHO.</p><p>
</p><p> </p><p>MarbleMe, I did noticed that you have made it very clear that you are not, in fact, in the total disapproval of those people who were responsibly opting for self doctoring. I do fully agree with you with whatever you said up there, this is a decision that every person need to make for themselves and we must take it all in full responsibilities of it and as you said: yeah, there are people who are fully responsible while there are those who are not…</p><p> </p><p>Besides, yeah, there indeed are a lot of people who do end up being “strung out” and they are finding themselves in a full blown addiction before they even realize it and that’s truly very sad. Besides responsibility, wisdom in the self doctoring decision is an utmost priority, thorough the knowledge of the drug and the relationship as well as the reaction with your body need to be established way long before starting the self doctoring or medicating is becoming the primary source as well as the permanent course of the personal action.</p><p> </p><p>Well, by saying this I am just trying to point out that when you are self medicating then, if having the proper and correct knowledge of your body’s responses as well as tolerances then restrictions or guidelines of recommended daily doses limits could become different in your personal diagnosis.</p><p> </p><p>This is not telling a free for all, no holds barred attitude of increasing the amounts forever into the oblivion is acceptable, however knowing your own tolerances and the proper (the correct ones) amounts of a meds that is benefiting you personally could find a daily dosage amount that is bigger than otherwise would be generally accepted.</p><p> </p><p>And now lastly, that statement about the RC Benzos could very well be a cause for concern. To be fully honest with you, I know little to almost nothing about the usages of research chems, I have sincerely never tried any of them and nor have any desire to do so, that’s why I won’t even try to. yeah, I do feel that they could too and most likely are being used by some people out there in the safest as well as in the least dangerous way possible (at least I hope so), or at the very least as it is possible when taking an RC. I am just saying this due to the fact that I have a friend that it is using RCs and although I’m not an expert (as I already mentioned) it really seems to me that he really knows what he is doing. Besides, from as much as I know him I know that he has not blindly experimenting things on himself and once again… at least I do not think so and at the very least, I just hope so.</p><p> </p><p>Besides, I also think that most of those people who really end up “strung out” from all of those forums out there (like the one) would be exactly as likely to end up in the exact same predicament and it does not matter of being in or on the forum like for example this one. I can say that “irresponsibility” is always going to find an opportunity and these with that trail is going to unfortunately find themselves in some bad situations from it regardless of who, where, when or how of it.</p>
 
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